{
    "schema": "prokopton42-public-passage-v1",
    "id": "plato.euthydemus",
    "canonical_url": "https://prokopton42.com/en/works/plato/euthydemus/reference-285/",
    "language": "en",
    "title": "Euthydemus",
    "author": "Plato",
    "date": "c. 390-370 BCE",
    "summary": "Socrates recounts an encounter in which Euthydemus and Dionysodorus overwhelm a young man with verbal refutations. The dialogue opposes eristic victory to an educational search for knowledge capable of making life flourish.",
    "learning": "Recognize several eristic devices, distinguish refutation from education, and follow the unfinished search for governing knowledge.",
    "long_summary": "The brothers exploit ambiguity and shifting meanings to prove a proposition and its opposite. Between performances Socrates leads Cleinias through inquiry into goodness, right use of resources, and the knowledge that might govern other crafts.\n\nComedy does more than ridicule opponents. It forces a distinction between logical form and pedagogical intention. Socratic inquiry itself remains incomplete, preventing a ready-made dogma from simply being opposed to eristic games.",
    "historical_context": "The corpus manifests do not yet establish the precise place and circumstances of composition. The images below document the author’s world or the text’s transmission. They do not claim to show the exact scene of writing.",
    "material_world_label": "Classical Greek world, 5th century BCE",
    "material_world": {
        "technology": "Bronze, iron, pottery, simple cranes, and shipbuilding sustain cities. Power still comes mainly from people, animals, wind, and water.",
        "science": "Geometry, astronomy, inquiry into nature, and rational argument advance without modern measuring instruments or standardized experiments.",
        "medicine": "Practitioners observe symptoms, diet, and seasons; healing sanctuaries and ritual treatment also remain common.",
        "transport": "Walking and animals dominate on land. Sailing ships and triremes connect islands, ports, and colonies.",
        "agriculture": "Small farms, grain, vines, olives, goats, and sheep shape the diet; harvests remain vulnerable to weather and war.",
        "communication": "Public speech, messengers, and handwritten letters carry news. Theatre, the civic square, and the banquet are major social media.",
        "clothing": "Women and men drape wool or linen as chitons, peploi, and cloaks. Garments are pinned, belted, and shaped by status rather than tailored like modern clothes."
    },
    "material_world_scenes": [
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-01.webp",
            "title": "Technology, science, and care",
            "description": "Bronze, iron, pottery, simple cranes, and shipbuilding sustain cities. Power still comes mainly from people, animals, wind, and water. Geometry, astronomy, inquiry into nature, and rational argument advance without modern measuring instruments or standardized experiments. Practitioners observe symptoms, diet, and seasons; healing sanctuaries and ritual treatment also remain common."
        },
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-02.webp",
            "title": "Travel and communication",
            "description": "Walking and animals dominate on land. Sailing ships and triremes connect islands, ports, and colonies. Public speech, messengers, and handwritten letters carry news. Theatre, the civic square, and the banquet are major social media."
        },
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-03.webp",
            "title": "Farming and food",
            "description": "Small farms, grain, vines, olives, goats, and sheep shape the diet; harvests remain vulnerable to weather and war."
        },
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-04.webp",
            "title": "Clothing, women and men",
            "description": "Women and men drape wool or linen as chitons, peploi, and cloaks. Garments are pinned, belted, and shaped by status rather than tailored like modern clothes."
        }
    ],
    "intellectual_tradition": {
        "id": "platonism",
        "label": "Socratic and Platonic thought"
    },
    "period": {
        "id": "ancient",
        "label": "Antiquity"
    },
    "languages": [
        "grc",
        "en",
        "fr"
    ],
    "manifestations": [
        {
            "coverage": "complete",
            "file": "data/corpus/normalized/plato/euthydemus/representations/grc.ndjson",
            "language": "grc",
            "records": 37,
            "role": "original",
            "sha256": "4f7558b1d8ae55300cf2d2200374f18ed227905f1cd21e77642c1bcd8d6a63d8",
            "source_id": "perseus-plato-euthydemus-grc"
        },
        {
            "coverage": "complete",
            "file": "data/corpus/normalized/plato/euthydemus/representations/en.ndjson",
            "language": "en",
            "records": 37,
            "role": "historical_translation",
            "sha256": "a955ece52ab894425168006ea543f60bbdc41ba35ad404cf0084b1c165991eb7",
            "source_id": "perseus-plato-euthydemus-en"
        },
        {
            "coverage": "complete",
            "file": "data/corpus/normalized/plato/euthydemus/representations/fr.ndjson",
            "language": "fr",
            "records": 37,
            "role": "historical_translation",
            "sha256": "eb2544b59eff5cef057c18339c80f1c15fc90e276c1fa337da88f2a5431e6a3e",
            "source_id": "wikisource-cousin-euthydemus-fr-01"
        }
    ],
    "concepts": [
        {
            "id": "anger",
            "label": "Anger"
        },
        {
            "id": "care_of_soul",
            "label": "Care of the soul"
        },
        {
            "id": "death",
            "label": "Death"
        },
        {
            "id": "dialectic",
            "label": "Dialectic"
        },
        {
            "id": "ether_field",
            "label": "Ether and field"
        },
        {
            "id": "faith",
            "label": "Faith"
        },
        {
            "id": "family",
            "label": "Family"
        },
        {
            "id": "fear",
            "label": "Fear"
        },
        {
            "id": "forms",
            "label": "Intelligible forms"
        },
        {
            "id": "friendship",
            "label": "Friendship"
        },
        {
            "id": "impressions_and_assent",
            "label": "Impressions and assent"
        },
        {
            "id": "junzi_exemplary_person",
            "label": "Junzi, exemplary person"
        },
        {
            "id": "justice_and_care",
            "label": "Justice and care for the vulnerable"
        },
        {
            "id": "messiah",
            "label": "Messiah"
        },
        {
            "id": "philosophical_eros",
            "label": "Philosophical eros"
        },
        {
            "id": "reason",
            "label": "Reason"
        },
        {
            "id": "roles",
            "label": "Roles and relationships"
        },
        {
            "id": "salvation",
            "label": "Salvation"
        },
        {
            "id": "sin",
            "label": "Sin"
        },
        {
            "id": "virtue",
            "label": "Virtue"
        },
        {
            "id": "wisdom",
            "label": "Wisdom"
        }
    ],
    "source_work_ids": [
        "plato.euthydemus"
    ],
    "passages": 37,
    "word_count": 17127,
    "word_counts_by_language": {
        "en": 17127,
        "fr": 14987,
        "grc": 12576
    },
    "editorial_status": "gpt_5_6_semantic_draft_v1",
    "structure": {
        "citation_scheme": "plato-stephanus-page-v1",
        "kind": "native",
        "levels": [
            {
                "key": "stephanus_page",
                "label_fr": "Page Stephanus",
                "label_en": "Stephanus page"
            }
        ],
        "leaf_fr": "Passage",
        "leaf_en": "Passage"
    },
    "canonical_passage_id": "passage:plato.euthydemus:285",
    "canonical_ref": "285",
    "canonical_parent_ref": null,
    "canonical_parent_id": null,
    "representations": [
        {
            "language": "grc",
            "text": "ΣΩ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐκ ἔγωγε, ἦ δʼ ὅς, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε, ἐπεὶ φιλῶ σε, ἀλλὰ νουθετῶ σε ὡς ἑταῖρον, καὶ πειρῶμαι πείθειν μηδέποτε ἐναντίον ἐμοῦ οὕτως ἀγροίκως λέγειν ὅτι ἐγὼ τούτους βούλομαι ἐξολωλέναι, οὓς περὶ πλείστου ποιοῦμαι. ἐγὼ οὖν, ἐπειδή μοι ἐδόκουν ἀγριωτέρως πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἔχειν, προσέπαιζόν τε τὸν Κτήσιππον καὶ εἶπον ὅτι ὦ Κτήσιππε, ἐμοὶ μὲν δοκεῖ χρῆναι ἡμᾶς παρὰ τῶν ξένων δέχεσθαι ἃ λέγουσιν, ἐὰν ἐθέλωσι διδόναι, καὶ μὴ ὀνόματι διαφέρεσθαι. εἰ γὰρ ἐπίστανται οὕτως ἐξολλύναι ἀνθρώπους, ὥστʼ ἐκ πονηρῶν τε καὶ ἀφρόνων χρηστούς τε καὶ ἔμφρονας ποιεῖν, καὶ τοῦτο εἴτε αὐτὼ ηὑρήκατον εἴτε καὶ παρʼ ἄλλου του ἐμαθέτην φθόρον τινὰ καὶ ὄλεθρον τοιοῦτον, ὥστε ἀπολέσαντες πονηρὸν ὄντα χρηστὸν πάλιν ἀποφῆναι· εἰ τοῦτο ἐπίστασθον—δῆλον δὲ ὅτι ἐπίστασθον· ἐφάτην γοῦν τὴν τέχνην σφῶν εἶναι τὴν νεωστὶ ηὑρημένην ἀγαθοὺς ποιεῖν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἐκ πονηρῶν—συγχωρήσωμεν οὖν αὐτοῖν αὐτό· ἀπολεσάντων ἡμῖν τὸ μειράκιον καὶ φρόνιμον ποιησάντων, καὶ ἅπαντάς γε ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἄλλους. εἰ δὲ ὑμεῖς οἱ νέοι φοβεῖσθε, ὥσπερ ἐν Καρὶ ἐν ἐμοὶ ἔστω ὁ κίνδυνος· ὡς ἐγώ, ἐπειδὴ καὶ πρεσβύτης εἰμί, παρακινδυνεύειν ἕτοιμος καὶ παραδίδωμι ἐμαυτὸν Διονυσοδώρῳ τούτῳ ὥσπερ τῇ Μηδείᾳ τῇ Κόλχῳ. ἀπολλύτω με, καὶ εἰ μὲν βούλεται, ἑψέτω, εἰ δʼ, ὅτι βούλεται, τοῦτο ποιείτω· μόνον χρηστὸν ἀποφηνάτω. καὶ ὁ Κτήσιππος, ἐγὼ μέν, ἔφη, καὶ αὐτός, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἕτοιμός εἰμι παρέχειν ἐμαυτὸν τοῖς ξένοις, καὶ ἐὰν βούλωνται δέρειν ἔτι μᾶλλον ἢ νῦν δέρουσιν, εἴ μοι ἡ δορὰ μὴ εἰς ἀσκὸν τελευτήσει, ὥσπερ ἡ τοῦ Μαρσύου, ἀλλʼ εἰς ἀρετήν. καίτοι με οἴεται Διονυσόδωρος οὑτοσὶ χαλεπαίνειν αὐτῷ· ἐγὼ δὲ οὐ χαλεπαίνω, ἀλλʼ ἀντιλέγω πρὸς ταῦτα ἅ μοι δοκεῖ πρός με μὴ καλῶς λέγειν. ἀλλὰ σὺ τὸ ἀντιλέγειν, ἔφη, ὦ γενναῖε Διονυσόδωρε, μὴ κάλει λοιδορεῖσθαι· ἕτερον γάρ τί ἐστι τὸ λοιδορεῖσθαι. καὶ Διονυσόδωρος, ὡς ὄντος, ἔφη, τοῦ ἀντιλέγειν, ὦ Κτήσιππε, ποιῇ τοὺς λόγους; πάντως δήπου, ἔφη, καὶ σφόδρα γε· ἢ σύ, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε, οὐκ οἴει εἶναι ἀντιλέγειν; οὔκουν σύ γʼ ἄν, ἔφη, ἀποδείξαις πώποτε ἀκούσας οὐδενὸς ἀντιλέγοντος ἑτέρου ἑτέρῳ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις; ἔφη· ἀλλὰ ἀκούων μὲν νυνί σοι ἀποδείκνυμι ἀντιλέγοντος Κτησίππου Διονυσοδώρῳ. ἦ καὶ ὑπόσχοις ἂν τούτου λόγον; πάνυ, ἔφη.",
            "edition": "perseus-plato-euthydemus-grc",
            "source_id": "perseus-plato-euthydemus-grc",
            "translation_type": "original"
        },
        {
            "language": "en",
            "text": "Soc. Not I, on my soul, Dionysodorus, for I like you: I am only giving you a friendly hint, and endeavoring to persuade you never to say anything so tactless in my presence as that I wish these my most highly valued friends to be dead and gone. So then I, observing that they were getting rather savage with each other, began to poke fun. at Ctesippus, saying: Ctesippus, my feeling is that we ought to accept from our visitors what they tell us, if they are so good as to give it, and should not quarrel over a word. For if they understand how to do away with people in such sort as to change them from wicked and witless to honest and intelligent, and that too whether they have discovered for themselves or learnt from somebody else this peculiar kind of destruction or undoing, which enables them to destroy a man in his wickedness and set him up again in honesty; if they understand this—and obviously they do; you know they said that their newly discovered art was to turn wicked men into good—let us then accord them this power; let them destroy the lad for us, and make him sensible, and all the rest of us likewise. If you young fellows are afraid, let the experiment be made on me as a corpus vile ; for I, being an elderly person, am ready to take the risk and put myself in the hands of Dionysodorus here, as if he were the famous Medea of Colchis . Let him destroy me, and if he likes let him boil me down, or do to me whatever he pleases: only he must make me good. Then Ctesippus said: I too, Socrates, am ready to offer myself to be skinned by the strangers even more, if they choose, than they are doing now, if my hide is not to end by being made into a wine-skin, like that of Marsyas, but into the shape of virtue. And yet Dionysodorus here believes I am vexed with him. I am not vexed at all; I only contradict the remarks which I think he has improperly aimed at me. Come now, my generous Dionysodorus, do not call contradiction abuse: abuse is quite another thing. On this Dionysodorus said: As though there were such a thing as contradiction! Is that the way you argue, Ctesippus? Yes, to be sure, he replied, indeed I do; and do you, Dionysodorus, hold that there is not? Well, you at any rate, he said, could not prove that you had ever heard a single person contradicting another. Is that so? he replied: well, let us hear now whether I can prove a case of it—Ctesippus contradicting Dionysodorus. Now, will you make that good? Certainly, he said.",
            "translator": "Benjamin Jowett",
            "edition": "perseus-plato-euthydemus-en",
            "source_id": "perseus-plato-euthydemus-en",
            "translation_type": "historical_human_translation"
        },
        {
            "language": "fr",
            "text": "[285a] la mort des personnes qui me sont très chères. Comme je vis qu’ils s’échauffaient trop, je me mis à plaisanter Ctésippe, et lui dis : Il me semble, Ctésippe, que nous devons accepter de ces étrangers ce qu’ils nous disent, et ne pas disputer avec eux sur des mots, pourvu qu’ils veuillent nous faire part de leur science ; car s’ils savent refondre les hommes, d’un méchant et d’un ignorant faire un homme de bien et un sage, n’importe qu’ils aient eux-mêmes découvert ou qu’ils aient appris [285b] d’un autre cette espèce de destruction merveilleuse par laquelle ils font périr le méchant et mettent à sa place un homme de bien ; s’ils savent cela, et il n’y a point à en douter, puisqu’ils annonçaient tout à l’heure qu’ils ont depuis peu trouvé l’art de changer les méchans en gens de bien, accordons-leur ce qu’ils demandent ; qu’ils tuent ce jeune homme, pourvu qu’ils en fassent un homme de bien, et qu’ils nous tuent nous-mêmes à ce prix. Si vous avez peur, [285c] vous autres jeunes gens, qu’ils fassent l’expérience sur moi comme sur un Carien ; je suis vieux, je courrai volontiers ce danger, et me voilà prêt à m’abandonner à notre Dionysodore, comme à une autre Médée de Colchos. Qu’il me tue, s’il le veut, qu’il me fasse bouillir et tout ce qu’il lui plaira, pourvu qu’il me rende vertueux. Alors, Ctésippe : Je suis prêt aussi, Socrate, à m’abandonner à ces étrangers ; et, s’il leur plaît, qu’ils m’écorchent même plus qu’ils ne font à présent, à condition qu’ils tirent de ma peau, [285d] non pas une outre, comme de la peau de Marsyas, mais la vertu. Dionysodore s’imagine que je suis en colère contre lui, point du tout, je ne fais que repousser ce qu’il m’attribue à tort dans ses discours. Il ne faut pas appeler injure, Dionysodore, ce qui n’est que contradiction : injurier est tout autre chose. — Là-dessus, Dionysodore prit la parole, et dit : Tu parles, Ctésippe, comme si c’était quelque chose que contredire. [285e] — Assurément oui, répondit-il ; mais toi, Dionysodore, est-ce que tu ne le crois pas ? — Tu ne me prouveras jamais que tu aies entendu deux hommes se contredire l’un l’autre. — Soit ; mais voyons si Ctésippe ne te le prouvera pas aujourd’hui en contredisant Dionysodore. — T’engages-tu à me rendre raison de cette prétention en me répondant ? — Assurément. — Ne peut-on pas parler de toutes choses ? — Oui. — Comme elles sont, ou comme elles ne sont pas ?",
            "translator": "Victor Cousin",
            "edition": "wikisource-cousin-euthydemus-fr-01",
            "source_id": "wikisource-cousin-euthydemus-fr-01",
            "translation_type": "historical_human_translation"
        }
    ],
    "content_checksum": "343329cae29e3bdb4fee3bfb531712d457a22dad28131f3a3f93455fc5df8d72"
}