{ "schema": "prokopton42-public-passage-v1", "id": "socrates.plato_gorgias", "canonical_url": "https://prokopton42.com/en/works/plato/plato-gorgias/reference-457/", "language": "en", "title": "Socrates in Plato’s Gorgias", "author": "Plato", "date": "c. 390-380 BCE", "summary": "Facing three defenders of rhetoric and power, Plato’s Socrates argues that speech without knowledge of justice is flattery. He prefers suffering injustice to deforming his soul by committing it.", "learning": "Compare Socrates’ strategies with three interlocutors, connect justice with the soul’s condition, and qualify Plato’s polemical mediation.", "long_summary": "With Gorgias Socrates asks what object and knowledge belong to rhetoric; with Polus he denies that a tyrant truly does what he wants; with Callicles he opposes ordered desire to justice claimed by the stronger.\n\nThe exchange’s increasing harshness constructs a Socrates ready to stand alone against opinion. Plato gives him arguments, medical analogies, and the final myth. This philosophical portrait reveals a Socratic ideal within dialogue, not an independent recording of controversies.", "historical_context": "The corpus manifests do not yet establish the precise place and circumstances of composition. The images below document the author’s world or the text’s transmission. They do not claim to show the exact scene of writing.", "material_world_label": "Classical Greek world, 5th century BCE", "material_world": { "technology": "Bronze, iron, pottery, simple cranes, and shipbuilding sustain cities. Power still comes mainly from people, animals, wind, and water.", "science": "Geometry, astronomy, inquiry into nature, and rational argument advance without modern measuring instruments or standardized experiments.", "medicine": "Practitioners observe symptoms, diet, and seasons; healing sanctuaries and ritual treatment also remain common.", "transport": "Walking and animals dominate on land. Sailing ships and triremes connect islands, ports, and colonies.", "agriculture": "Small farms, grain, vines, olives, goats, and sheep shape the diet; harvests remain vulnerable to weather and war.", "communication": "Public speech, messengers, and handwritten letters carry news. Theatre, the civic square, and the banquet are major social media.", "clothing": "Women and men drape wool or linen as chitons, peploi, and cloaks. Garments are pinned, belted, and shaped by status rather than tailored like modern clothes." }, "material_world_scenes": [ { "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-01.webp", "title": "Technology, science, and care", "description": "Bronze, iron, pottery, simple cranes, and shipbuilding sustain cities. Power still comes mainly from people, animals, wind, and water. Geometry, astronomy, inquiry into nature, and rational argument advance without modern measuring instruments or standardized experiments. Practitioners observe symptoms, diet, and seasons; healing sanctuaries and ritual treatment also remain common." }, { "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-02.webp", "title": "Travel and communication", "description": "Walking and animals dominate on land. Sailing ships and triremes connect islands, ports, and colonies. Public speech, messengers, and handwritten letters carry news. Theatre, the civic square, and the banquet are major social media." }, { "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-03.webp", "title": "Farming and food", "description": "Small farms, grain, vines, olives, goats, and sheep shape the diet; harvests remain vulnerable to weather and war." }, { "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-04.webp", "title": "Clothing, women and men", "description": "Women and men drape wool or linen as chitons, peploi, and cloaks. Garments are pinned, belted, and shaped by status rather than tailored like modern clothes." } ], "intellectual_tradition": { "id": "platonism", "label": "Socratic and Platonic thought" }, "period": { "id": "ancient", "label": "Antiquity" }, "languages": [ "grc", "en", "fr" ], "manifestations": [ { "coverage": "complete", "file": "data/corpus/normalized/socrates/plato_gorgias/representations/grc.ndjson", "language": "grc", "records": 81, "role": "original_carrier", "sha256": "6375206e2c0f5f63895c63ad84f2e4193caaf0e9b977b3ebbee150a974cdbb45", "source_id": "perseus-plato-gorgias-grc" }, { "coverage": "complete", "file": "data/corpus/normalized/socrates/plato_gorgias/representations/en.ndjson", "language": "en", "records": 81, "role": "historical_translation", "sha256": "9937810691c453868da6ec45248a969dae04575a84bebe600ec35a027685aa0c", "source_id": "perseus-plato-gorgias-en" }, { "coverage": "complete", "file": "data/corpus/normalized/socrates/plato_gorgias/representations/ai-generated/fr-gpt-5-6-sol-corpus-passage-translation-v1.ndjson", "generated_on": "2026-09-11", "language": "fr", "model": "gpt-5.6-sol", "official_status": "non_official", "prompt_version": "corpus-passage-translation-v1", "provider": "codex_subscription", "records": 81, "role": "ai_generated_translation_non_official", "sha256": "1672b73fb3bffbc60e73a797170f990f81f7705c94337417cbcdc6125e94649f", "source_id": "prokopton42-codex-translation:gpt-5.6-sol:corpus-passage-translation-v1", "translation_type": "ai_generated_translation" }, { "coverage": "complete", "file": "data/corpus/normalized/socrates/plato_gorgias_fr_carrier/representations/fr.ndjson", "language": "fr", "records": 1, "role": "historical_translation", "sha256": "4b9564c5c0a6b85cac39c19a5c63e22e96ec784408a36acb9bd633039e4474e7", "source_id": "wikisource-cousin-gorgias-fr-01" }, { "coverage": "complete", "file": "data/corpus/normalized/socrates/plato_gorgias_fr_carrier/representations/ai-generated/en-gpt-5-6-sol-corpus-passage-translation-v1.ndjson", "generated_on": "2026-09-11", "language": "en", "model": "gpt-5.6-sol", "official_status": "non_official", "prompt_version": "corpus-passage-translation-v1", "provider": "codex_subscription", "records": 1, "role": "ai_generated_translation_non_official", "sha256": "cf12413957fc07735d82d9845e2dd3a40ff64aaefde16714f85c1a63d0206994", "source_id": "prokopton42-codex-translation:gpt-5.6-sol:corpus-passage-translation-v1", "translation_type": "ai_generated_translation" } ], "concepts": [ { "id": "anger", "label": "Anger" }, { "id": "care_of_soul", "label": "Care of the soul" }, { "id": "death", "label": "Death" }, { "id": "elenchus", "label": "Elenchus" }, { "id": "ether_field", "label": "Ether and field" }, { "id": "family", "label": "Family" }, { "id": "fear", "label": "Fear" }, { "id": "friendship", "label": "Friendship" }, { "id": "justice", "label": "Justice" }, { "id": "logos_nature", "label": "Logos of nature" }, { "id": "messiah", "label": "Messiah" }, { "id": "philosophical_training", "label": "Philosophical training" }, { "id": "reason", "label": "Reason" }, { "id": "rhetoric", "label": "Rhetoric" }, { "id": "service", "label": "Service" }, { "id": "spirit", "label": "Spirit" } ], "source_work_ids": [ "socrates.plato_gorgias", "socrates.plato_gorgias_fr_carrier" ], "passages": 81, "word_count": 42811, "word_counts_by_language": { "en": 42811, "fr": 43834, "grc": 27405 }, "editorial_status": "gpt_5_6_semantic_draft_v1", "structure": { "citation_scheme": "carrier-explicit-ancient-reference-v1", "kind": "native", "levels": [ { "key": "reference", "label_fr": "Référence", "label_en": "Reference" } ], "leaf_fr": "Passage", "leaf_en": "Passage" }, "canonical_passage_id": "passage:socrates.plato_gorgias:457", "canonical_ref": "457", "canonical_parent_ref": null, "canonical_parent_id": null, "representations": [ { "language": "grc", "text": "ΓΟΡ. οὔκουν οἱ διδάξαντες πονηροί, οὐδὲ ἡ τέχνη οὔτε αἰτία οὔτε πονηρὰ τούτου ἕνεκά ἐστιν, ἀλλʼ οἱ μὴ χρώμενοι οἶμαι ὀρθῶς. ὁ αὐτὸς δὴ λόγος καὶ περὶ τῆς ῥητορικῆς. δυνατὸς μὲν γὰρ πρὸς ἅπαντάς ἐστιν ὁ ῥήτωρ καὶ περὶ παντὸς λέγειν, ὥστε πιθανώτερος εἶναι ἐν τοῖς πλήθεσιν ἔμβραχυ περὶ ὅτου ἂν βούληται· ἀλλʼ οὐδέν τι μᾶλλον τούτου ἕνεκα δεῖ οὔτε τοὺς ἰατροὺς τὴν δόξαν ἀφαιρεῖσθαι— ὅτι δύναιτο ἂν τοῦτο ποιῆσαι—οὔτε τοὺς ἄλλους δημιουργούς, ἀλλὰ δικαίως καὶ τῇ ῥητορικῇ χρῆσθαι, ὥσπερ καὶ τῇ ἀγωνίᾳ. ἐὰν δὲ οἶμαι ῥητορικὸς γενόμενός τις κᾆτα ταύτῃ τῇ δυνάμει καὶ τῇ τέχνῃ ἀδικῇ, οὐ τὸν διδάξαντα δεῖ μισεῖν τε καὶ ἐκβάλλειν ἐκ τῶν πόλεων. ἐκεῖνος μὲν γὰρ ἐπὶ δικαίου χρείᾳ παρέδωκεν, ὁ δʼ ἐναντίως χρῆται. τὸν οὖν οὐκ ὀρθῶς χρώμενον μισεῖν δίκαιον καὶ ἐκβάλλειν καὶ ἀποκτεινύναι ἀλλʼ οὐ τὸν διδάξαντα. ΣΩ. οἶμαι, ὦ Γοργία, καὶ σὲ ἔμπειρον εἶναι πολλῶν λόγων καὶ καθεωρακέναι ἐν αὐτοῖς τὸ τοιόνδε, ὅτι οὐ ῥᾳδίως δύνανται περὶ ὧν ἂν ἐπιχειρήσωσιν διαλέγεσθαι διορισάμενοι πρὸς ἀλλήλους καὶ μαθόντες καὶ διδάξαντες ἑαυτούς, οὕτω διαλύεσθαι τὰς συνουσίας, ἀλλʼ ἐὰν περί του ἀμφισβητήσωσιν καὶ μὴ φῇ ὁ ἕτερος τὸν ἕτερον ὀρθῶς λέγειν ἢ μὴ σαφῶς, χαλεπαίνουσί τε καὶ κατὰ φθόνον οἴονται τὸν ἑαυτῶν λέγειν, φιλονικοῦντας ἀλλʼ οὐ ζητοῦντας τὸ προκείμενον ἐν τῷ λόγῳ· καὶ ἔνιοί γε τελευτῶντες αἴσχιστα ἀπαλλάττονται, λοιδορηθέντες τε καὶ εἰπόντες καὶ ἀκούσαντες περὶ σφῶν αὐτῶν τοιαῦτα οἷα καὶ τοὺς παρόντας ἄχθεσθαι ὑπὲρ σφῶν αὐτῶν, ὅτι τοιούτων ἀνθρώπων ἠξίωσαν ἀκροαταὶ γενέσθαι. τοῦ δὴ ἕνεκα λέγω ταῦτα; ὅτι νῦν ἐμοὶ δοκεῖς σὺ οὐ πάνυ ἀκόλουθα λέγειν οὐδὲ σύμφωνα οἷς τὸ πρῶτον ἔλεγες περὶ τῆς ῥητορικῆς· φοβοῦμαι οὖν διελέγχειν σε, μή με ὑπολάβῃς οὐ πρὸς τὸ πρᾶγμα φιλονικοῦντα λέγειν τοῦ καταφανὲς γενέσθαι, ἀλλὰ πρὸς σέ.", "edition": "perseus-plato-gorgias-grc", "source_id": "perseus-plato-gorgias-grc", "translation_type": "original" }, { "language": "en", "text": "Gorg. So it is not the teachers who are wicked, nor is the art either guilty or wicked on this account, but rather, to my thinking, those who do not use it properly. Now the same argument applies also to rhetoric: for the orator is able, indeed, to speak against every one and on every question in such a way as to win over the votes of the multitude, practically in any matter he may choose to take up: but he is no whit the more entitled to deprive the doctors of their credit, just because he could do so, or other professionals of theirs; he must use his rhetoric fairly, as in the case of athletic exercise. And, in my opinion, if a man becomes a rhetorician and then uses this power and this art unfairly, we ought not to hate his teacher and cast him out of our cities. For he imparted that skill to be used in all fairness, whilst this man puts it to an opposite use. Thus it is the man who does not use it aright who deserves to be hated and expelled and put to death, and not his teacher. Soc. I expect, Gorgias, that you as well as I have had no small practice in arguments, and have observed the following fact about them, that it is not easy for people to define to each other the matters which they take in hand to discuss, and to make such exchange of instruction as will fairly bring their debate to an end: no, if they find that some point is in dispute between them, and one of them says that the other is speaking incorrectly or obscurely, they are annoyed and think the remark comes from jealousy of themselves, and in a spirit of contention rather than of inquiry into the matter proposed for discussion. In some cases, indeed, they end by making a most disgraceful scene, with such abusive expressions on each side that the rest of the company are vexed on their own account that they allowed themselves to listen to such fellows. Well, what is my reason for saying this? It is because your present remarks do not seem to me quite in keeping or accord with what you said at first about rhetoric. Now I am afraid to refute you, lest you imagine I am contentiously neglecting the point and its elucidation, and merely attacking you.", "translator": "Benjamin Jowett", "edition": "perseus-plato-gorgias-en", "source_id": "perseus-plato-gorgias-en", "translation_type": "historical_human_translation" }, { "language": "fr", "text": "Gorg. Ce ne sont donc pas les maîtres qui sont mauvais, et l'art n'est ni coupable ni mauvais pour cette raison. Ce sont plutôt, à mon avis, ceux qui n'en usent pas correctement. Le même raisonnement vaut pour la rhétorique. L'orateur est certes capable de parler contre tout le monde et sur toute question de façon à gagner les suffrages de la multitude, à peu près sur n'importe quel sujet qu'il choisisse. Mais cela ne lui donne aucunement le droit d'enlever leur crédit aux médecins sous prétexte qu'il le pourrait, ni d'en dépouiller les autres professionnels. Il doit user justement de sa rhétorique, comme de l'exercice athlétique. Et si, selon moi, un homme devient rhéteur puis use injustement de cette puissance et de cet art, nous ne devons ni haïr son maître ni le chasser de nos cités. Car celui-ci lui a transmis ce savoir pour qu'il en use en toute justice, tandis que cet homme en fait un usage contraire. C'est donc celui qui n'en use pas correctement qui mérite d'être haï, expulsé et mis à mort, et non son maître.\n\nSoc. Je suppose, Gorgias, que toi comme moi, nous avons une assez longue pratique des discussions et que nous y avons observé le fait suivant : il n'est pas facile aux hommes de définir les uns pour les autres les matières qu'ils entreprennent de discuter, ni d'échanger leurs enseignements de manière à mener équitablement leur débat à son terme. Non, s'ils découvrent qu'un point est contesté entre eux et que l'un affirme que l'autre parle incorrectement ou obscurément, ils s'irritent et pensent que la remarque vient d'une jalousie à leur égard et d'un esprit de querelle, plutôt que d'un désir d'examiner la question proposée. Dans certains cas, ils finissent même par faire une scène des plus honteuses, s'accablant mutuellement d'injures au point que les autres participants s'en veulent d'avoir consenti à écouter de tels individus. Pourquoi dis-je cela ? Parce que tes propos présents ne me semblent pas tout à fait compatibles ni accordés avec ce que tu as d'abord dit de la rhétorique. Or je crains de te réfuter, de peur que tu ne t'imagines que, par esprit de dispute, je néglige la question et son éclaircissement pour m'en prendre simplement à toi.", "translator": "Codex gpt-5.6-sol", "edition": "Prokopton42 non-official AI translation, 2026-09-11", "source_id": "prokopton42-codex-translation:gpt-5.6-sol:corpus-passage-translation-v1", "translation_type": "ai_generated_translation", "official_status": "non_official", "generation_model": "gpt-5.6-sol" } ], "content_checksum": "65cd47e99adca8ed3b4e2be1a62eef61475ec60ff633bc40d6ccd6feb0cbcbd8" }