{
    "schema": "prokopton42-public-passage-v1",
    "id": "socrates.plato_gorgias",
    "canonical_url": "https://prokopton42.com/en/works/plato/plato-gorgias/reference-461/",
    "language": "en",
    "title": "Socrates in Plato’s Gorgias",
    "author": "Plato",
    "date": "c. 390-380 BCE",
    "summary": "Facing three defenders of rhetoric and power, Plato’s Socrates argues that speech without knowledge of justice is flattery. He prefers suffering injustice to deforming his soul by committing it.",
    "learning": "Compare Socrates’ strategies with three interlocutors, connect justice with the soul’s condition, and qualify Plato’s polemical mediation.",
    "long_summary": "With Gorgias Socrates asks what object and knowledge belong to rhetoric; with Polus he denies that a tyrant truly does what he wants; with Callicles he opposes ordered desire to justice claimed by the stronger.\n\nThe exchange’s increasing harshness constructs a Socrates ready to stand alone against opinion. Plato gives him arguments, medical analogies, and the final myth. This philosophical portrait reveals a Socratic ideal within dialogue, not an independent recording of controversies.",
    "historical_context": "The corpus manifests do not yet establish the precise place and circumstances of composition. The images below document the author’s world or the text’s transmission. They do not claim to show the exact scene of writing.",
    "material_world_label": "Classical Greek world, 5th century BCE",
    "material_world": {
        "technology": "Bronze, iron, pottery, simple cranes, and shipbuilding sustain cities. Power still comes mainly from people, animals, wind, and water.",
        "science": "Geometry, astronomy, inquiry into nature, and rational argument advance without modern measuring instruments or standardized experiments.",
        "medicine": "Practitioners observe symptoms, diet, and seasons; healing sanctuaries and ritual treatment also remain common.",
        "transport": "Walking and animals dominate on land. Sailing ships and triremes connect islands, ports, and colonies.",
        "agriculture": "Small farms, grain, vines, olives, goats, and sheep shape the diet; harvests remain vulnerable to weather and war.",
        "communication": "Public speech, messengers, and handwritten letters carry news. Theatre, the civic square, and the banquet are major social media.",
        "clothing": "Women and men drape wool or linen as chitons, peploi, and cloaks. Garments are pinned, belted, and shaped by status rather than tailored like modern clothes."
    },
    "material_world_scenes": [
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-01.webp",
            "title": "Technology, science, and care",
            "description": "Bronze, iron, pottery, simple cranes, and shipbuilding sustain cities. Power still comes mainly from people, animals, wind, and water. Geometry, astronomy, inquiry into nature, and rational argument advance without modern measuring instruments or standardized experiments. Practitioners observe symptoms, diet, and seasons; healing sanctuaries and ritual treatment also remain common."
        },
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-02.webp",
            "title": "Travel and communication",
            "description": "Walking and animals dominate on land. Sailing ships and triremes connect islands, ports, and colonies. Public speech, messengers, and handwritten letters carry news. Theatre, the civic square, and the banquet are major social media."
        },
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-03.webp",
            "title": "Farming and food",
            "description": "Small farms, grain, vines, olives, goats, and sheep shape the diet; harvests remain vulnerable to weather and war."
        },
        {
            "asset": "/assets/timeline/landmarks/03-431-bce/world-04.webp",
            "title": "Clothing, women and men",
            "description": "Women and men drape wool or linen as chitons, peploi, and cloaks. Garments are pinned, belted, and shaped by status rather than tailored like modern clothes."
        }
    ],
    "intellectual_tradition": {
        "id": "platonism",
        "label": "Socratic and Platonic thought"
    },
    "period": {
        "id": "ancient",
        "label": "Antiquity"
    },
    "languages": [
        "grc",
        "en",
        "fr"
    ],
    "manifestations": [
        {
            "coverage": "complete",
            "file": "data/corpus/normalized/socrates/plato_gorgias/representations/grc.ndjson",
            "language": "grc",
            "records": 81,
            "role": "original_carrier",
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            "generated_on": "2026-09-11",
            "language": "fr",
            "model": "gpt-5.6-sol",
            "official_status": "non_official",
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            "generated_on": "2026-09-11",
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    ],
    "concepts": [
        {
            "id": "anger",
            "label": "Anger"
        },
        {
            "id": "care_of_soul",
            "label": "Care of the soul"
        },
        {
            "id": "duty",
            "label": "Duty"
        },
        {
            "id": "elenchus",
            "label": "Elenchus"
        },
        {
            "id": "family",
            "label": "Family"
        },
        {
            "id": "forms",
            "label": "Intelligible forms"
        },
        {
            "id": "fortune",
            "label": "Fortune"
        },
        {
            "id": "freedom",
            "label": "Freedom"
        },
        {
            "id": "friendship",
            "label": "Friendship"
        },
        {
            "id": "justice",
            "label": "Justice"
        },
        {
            "id": "knowledge",
            "label": "Knowledge"
        },
        {
            "id": "messiah",
            "label": "Messiah"
        },
        {
            "id": "philosophical_eros",
            "label": "Philosophical eros"
        },
        {
            "id": "pleasure",
            "label": "Pleasure"
        },
        {
            "id": "reason",
            "label": "Reason"
        },
        {
            "id": "rhetoric",
            "label": "Rhetoric"
        },
        {
            "id": "service",
            "label": "Service"
        },
        {
            "id": "sin",
            "label": "Sin"
        },
        {
            "id": "time",
            "label": "Time"
        },
        {
            "id": "truth",
            "label": "Truth"
        }
    ],
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        "socrates.plato_gorgias_fr_carrier"
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    "passages": 81,
    "word_count": 42811,
    "word_counts_by_language": {
        "en": 42811,
        "fr": 43834,
        "grc": 27405
    },
    "editorial_status": "gpt_5_6_semantic_draft_v1",
    "structure": {
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        "kind": "native",
        "levels": [
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                "key": "reference",
                "label_fr": "Référence",
                "label_en": "Reference"
            }
        ],
        "leaf_fr": "Passage",
        "leaf_en": "Passage"
    },
    "canonical_passage_id": "passage:socrates.plato_gorgias:461",
    "canonical_ref": "461",
    "canonical_parent_ref": null,
    "canonical_parent_id": null,
    "representations": [
        {
            "language": "grc",
            "text": "ΣΩ. ἐγὼ τοίνυν σου τότε ταῦτα λέγοντος ὑπέλαβον ὡς οὐδέποτʼ ἂν εἴη ἡ ῥητορικὴ ἄδικον πρᾶγμα, ὅ γʼ ἀεὶ περὶ δικαιοσύνης τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖται· ἐπειδὴ δὲ ὀλίγον ὕστερον ἔλεγες ὅτι ὁ ῥήτωρ τῇ ῥητορικῇ κἂν ἀδίκως χρῷτο, οὕτω θαυμάσας καὶ ἡγησάμενος οὐ συνᾴδειν τὰ λεγόμενα ἐκείνους εἶπον τοὺς λόγους, ὅτι εἰ μὲν κέρδος ἡγοῖο εἶναι τὸ ἐλέγχεσθαι ὥσπερ ἐγώ, ἄξιον εἴη διαλέγεσθαι, εἰ δὲ μή, ἐᾶν χαίρειν. ὕστερον δὲ ἡμῶν ἐπισκοπουμένων ὁρᾷς δὴ καὶ αὐτὸς ὅτι αὖ ὁμολογεῖται τὸν ῥητορικὸν ἀδύνατον εἶναι ἀδίκως χρῆσθαι τῇ ῥητορικῇ καὶ ἐθέλειν ἀδικεῖν. ταῦτα οὖν ὅπῃ ποτὲ ἔχει, μὰ τὸν κύνα, ὦ Γοργία, οὐκ ὀλίγης συνουσίας ἐστὶν ὥστε ἱκανῶς διασκέψασθαι. ΠΩΛ. τί δέ, ὦ Σώκρατες; οὕτω καὶ σὺ περὶ τῆς ῥητορικῆς δοξάζεις ὥσπερ νῦν λέγεις; ἢ οἴει—ὅτι Γοργίας ᾐσχύνθη σοι μὴ προσομολογῆσαι τὸν ῥητορικὸν ἄνδρα μὴ οὐχὶ καὶ τὰ δίκαια εἰδέναι καὶ τὰ καλὰ καὶ τὰ ἀγαθά, καὶ ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ταῦτα εἰδὼς παρʼ αὐτόν, αὐτὸς διδάξειν, ἔπειτα ἐκ ταύτης ἴσως τῆς ὁμολογίας ἐναντίον τι συνέβη ἐν τοῖς λόγοις—τοῦτο ὃ δὴ ἀγαπᾷς, αὐτὸς ἀγαγὼν ἐπὶ τοιαῦτα ἐρωτήματα—ἐπεὶ τίνα οἴει ἀπαρνήσεσθαι μὴ οὐχὶ καὶ αὐτὸν ἐπίστασθαι τὰ δίκαια καὶ ἄλλους διδάξειν; —ἀλλʼ εἰς τὰ τοιαῦτα ἄγειν πολλὴ ἀγροικία ἐστὶν τοὺς λόγους. ΣΩ. ὦ κάλλιστε Πῶλε, ἀλλά τοι ἐξεπίτηδες κτώμεθα ἑταίρους καὶ ὑεῖς, ἵνα ἐπειδὰν αὐτοὶ πρεσβύτεροι γενόμενοι σφαλλώμεθα, παρόντες ὑμεῖς οἱ νεώτεροι ἐπανορθῶτε ἡμῶν τὸν βίον καὶ ἐν ἔργοις καὶ ἐν λόγοις. καὶ νῦν εἴ τι ἐγὼ καὶ Γοργίας ἐν τοῖς λόγοις σφαλλόμεθα, σὺ παρὼν ἐπανόρθου— δίκαιος δʼ εἶ—καὶ ἐγὼ ἐθέλω τῶν ὡμολογημένων εἴ τί σοι δοκεῖ μὴ καλῶς ὡμολογῆσθαι, ἀναθέσθαι ὅτι ἂν σὺ βούλῃ, ἐάν μοι ἓν μόνον φυλάττῃς. ΠΩΛ. τί τοῦτο λέγεις; ΣΩ. τὴν μακρολογίαν, ὦ Πῶλε, ἢν καθέρξῃς, ᾗ τὸ πρῶτον ἐπεχείρησας χρῆσθαι. ΠΩΛ. τί δέ; οὐκ ἐξέσται μοι λέγειν ὁπόσα ἂν βούλωμαι; ΣΩ. δεινὰ μεντἂν πάθοις, ὦ βέλτιστε, εἰ Ἀθήναζε ἀφικόμενος, οὗ τῆς Ἑλλάδος πλείστη ἐστὶν ἐξουσία τοῦ λέγειν, ἔπειτα σὺ ἐνταῦθα τούτου μόνος ἀτυχήσαις.",
            "edition": "perseus-plato-gorgias-grc",
            "source_id": "perseus-plato-gorgias-grc",
            "translation_type": "original"
        },
        {
            "language": "en",
            "text": "Soc. Well then, I supposed at the time when you were saying this that rhetoric could never be an unjust thing, since the speeches it made were always about justice but when a little later you told us that the orator might make even an unjust use of his rhetoric, that indeed surprised me, and thinking the two statements were not in accord I made those proposals,—that if, like myself, you counted it a gain to be refuted, it was worth while to have the discussion, but if not, we had better have done with it. And now that we have come to examine the matter, you see for yourself that we agree once more that it is impossible for the rhetorician to use his rhetoric unjustly or consent to do wrong. Now, to distinguish properly which way the truth of the matter lies will require, by the Dog, Gorgias, no short sitting. Pol. How is this, Socrates? Is that really your opinion of rhetoric, as you now express it? Or, think you, because Gorgias was ashamed not to admit your point that the rhetorician knows what is just and noble and good, and will himself teach these to anyone who comes to him without knowing them; and then from this admission I daresay there followed some inconsistency in the statements made—the result that you are so fond of—when it was yourself who led him into that set of questions! For who do you think will deny that he has a knowledge of what is just and can also teach it to others? I call it very bad taste to lead the discussion in such a direction. Soc. Ah, sweet Polus, of course it is for this very purpose we possess ourselves of companions and sons, that when the advance of years begins to make us stumble, you younger ones may be at hand to set our lives upright again in words as well as deeds. So now if Gorgias and I are stumbling in our words, you are to stand by and set us up again—it is only your duty; and for my part I am willing to revoke at your pleasure anything that you think has been wrongly admitted, if you will kindly observe one condition. Pol. What do you mean by that? Soc. That you keep a check on that lengthy way of speaking, Polus, which you tried to employ at first. Pol. Why, shall I not be at liberty to say as much as I like? Soc. It would indeed be a hard fate for you, my excellent friend, if having come to Athens , where there is more freedom of speech than anywhere in Greece , you should be the one person there who could not enjoy it.",
            "translator": "Benjamin Jowett",
            "edition": "perseus-plato-gorgias-en",
            "source_id": "perseus-plato-gorgias-en",
            "translation_type": "historical_human_translation"
        },
        {
            "language": "fr",
            "text": "Soc. Eh bien, lorsque tu disais cela, je supposais que la rhétorique ne pouvait jamais être une chose injuste, puisque ses discours portaient toujours sur la justice. Mais, lorsque tu nous as dit un peu plus tard que l'orateur pouvait même faire un usage injuste de sa rhétorique, cela m'a véritablement surpris. J'ai pensé que les deux déclarations ne s'accordaient pas et j'ai fait ces propositions : s'il t'était profitable, comme à moi, d'être réfuté, la discussion en valait la peine ; sinon, mieux valait en rester là. Et maintenant que nous avons examiné la question, tu vois toi-même que nous convenons de nouveau qu'il est impossible au rhéteur d'user injustement de sa rhétorique ou de consentir à commettre une injustice. Or, par le Chien, Gorgias, distinguer correctement de quel côté se trouve la vérité exigera une séance qui ne sera pas brève.\n\nPol. Comment cela, Socrate ? Est-ce vraiment là ton opinion de la rhétorique, telle que tu viens de l'exprimer ? Ne crois-tu pas plutôt que Gorgias a eu honte de ne pas t'accorder que le rhéteur connaît le juste, le noble et le bon, et qu'il les enseignera lui-même à quiconque vient auprès de lui sans les connaître ? Puis, de cet aveu, quelque contradiction dans ses déclarations a sans doute découlé, résultat que tu affectionnes tant, après l'avoir toi-même conduit dans cette série de questions ! Qui, selon toi, niera connaître ce qui est juste et pouvoir aussi l'enseigner à d'autres ? Je trouve de très mauvais goût de conduire la discussion dans une telle direction.\n\nSoc. Ah, mon doux Polos, c'est précisément pour cela que nous nous procurons des compagnons et des fils : lorsque les progrès de l'âge commencent à nous faire trébucher, vous autres, plus jeunes, pouvez être là pour redresser notre vie, tant par les paroles que par les actes. Si Gorgias et moi trébuchons maintenant dans nos paroles, tiens-toi auprès de nous et remets-nous debout. Ce n'est que ton devoir. Pour ma part, je veux bien révoquer, selon ton désir, tout ce qui te semble avoir été admis à tort, si tu consens à respecter une seule condition.\n\nPol. Que veux-tu dire ?\n\nSoc. Que tu contiennes cette manière prolixe de parler, Polos, dont tu as tenté de faire usage au début.\n\nPol. Quoi, ne serai-je pas libre de parler aussi longuement qu'il me plaira ?\n\nSoc. Ton sort serait vraiment dur, excellent ami, si, venu à Athènes, où la liberté de parole est plus grande que partout ailleurs en Grèce, tu étais le seul homme à ne pouvoir en jouir.",
            "translator": "Codex gpt-5.6-sol",
            "edition": "Prokopton42 non-official AI translation, 2026-09-11",
            "source_id": "prokopton42-codex-translation:gpt-5.6-sol:corpus-passage-translation-v1",
            "translation_type": "ai_generated_translation",
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            "generation_model": "gpt-5.6-sol"
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}