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Plato
Second Alcibiades, a Pseudo-Platonic Dialogue Passage 138
Passage 1 of 14
Canonical reference 138
Ancient Greek
perseus-plato-alcibiades_2-grc
ΣΩ. ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, ἆρά γε πρὸς τὸν θεὸν προσευξόμενος πορεύῃ; ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ὦ Σώκρατες. ΣΩ. φαίνῃ γέ τοι ἐσκυθρωπακέναι τε καὶ εἰς γῆν βλέπειν, ὥς τι συννοούμενος. ΑΛ. καὶ τί ἄν τις συννοοῖτο, ὦ Σώκρατες; ΣΩ. τὴν μεγίστην, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, σύννοιαν, ὥς γʼ ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ. ἐπεὶ φέρε πρὸς Διός, οὐκ οἴει τοὺς θεούς, ἃ τυγχάνομεν εὐχόμενοι καὶ ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ, ἐνίοτε τούτων τὰ μὲν διδόναι, τὰ δʼ οὔ, καὶ ἔστιν οἷς μὲν αὐτῶν, ἔστι δʼ οἷς οὔ; ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν δοκεῖ σοι πολλῆς προμηθείας γε προσδεῖσθαι, ὅπως μὴ λήσεται αὑτὸν εὐχόμενος μεγάλα κακά, δοκῶν δʼ ἀγαθά, οἱ δὲ θεοὶ τύχωσιν ἐν ταύτῃ ὄντες τῇ ἕξει, ἐν ᾗ διδόασιν αὐτοὶ ἅ τις εὐχόμενος τυγχάνει; ὥσπερ τὸν Οἰδίπουν αὐτίκα φασὶν εὔξασθαι χαλκῷ διελέσθαι τὰ πατρῷα τοὺς ὑεῖς· ἐξὸν αὐτῷ τῶν παρόντων αὐτῷ κακῶν ἀποτροπήν τινα εὔξασθαι, ἕτερα πρὸς τοῖς ὑπάρχουσιν κατηρᾶτο· τοιγαροῦν ταῦτά τε ἐξετελέσθη, καὶ ἐκ τούτων ἄλλα πολλὰ καὶ δεινά, ἃ τί δεῖ καθʼ ἕκαστα λέγειν; ΑΛ. ἀλλὰ σὺ μέν, ὦ Σώκρατες, μαινόμενον ἄνθρωπον εἴρηκας· ἐπεὶ τίς ἄν σοι δοκεῖ τολμῆσαι ὑγιαίνων τοιαῦτʼ εὔξασθαι; ΣΩ. τὸ μαίνεσθαι ἆρά γε ὑπεναντίον σοι δοκεῖ τῷ φρονεῖν; ΑΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. ΣΩ. ἄφρονες δὲ καὶ φρόνιμοι δοκοῦσιν ἄνθρωποι εἶναι τινές σοι; ΑΛ. εἶναι μέντοι. ΣΩ. φέρε δή, ἐπισκεψώμεθα τίνες ποτʼ εἰσὶν οὗτοι. ὅτι μὲν γάρ εἰσί τινες, ὡμολόγηται, ἄφρονές τε καὶ φρόνιμοι, καὶ μαινόμενοι ἕτεροι. ΑΛ. ὡμολόγηται γάρ. ΣΩ. ἔτι δὲ ὑγιαίνοντές εἰσί τινες; ΑΛ. εἰσίν. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀσθενοῦντες ἕτεροι;
English
Benjamin Jowett · perseus-plato-alcibiades_2-en
Soc. Alcibiades, are you on your way to offer a prayer to the god? Alc. I am, certainly, Socrates. Soc. You seem, let me say, to have a gloomy look, and to keep your eyes on the ground, as though you were pondering something. Alc. And what might one ponder, Socrates? Soc. The greatest of questions, Alcibiades, as I believe. For tell me, in Heaven’s name, do you not think that the gods sometimes grant in part, but in part refuse, what we ask of them in our private and public prayers, and gratify some people, but not others? Alc. I do, certainly. Soc. Then you would agree that one should take great precautions against falling unawares into the error of praying for great evils in the belief that they are good, while the gods happen to be disposed to grant freely what one is praying for? Just as Oedipus, they say, suddenly prayed that his sons might divide their patrimony with the sword: it was open to him to pray that his present evils might by some means be averted, but he invoked others in addition to those which he had already. Wherefore not only were those words of his accomplished, but many other dread results therefrom, which I think there is no need to recount in detail. Alc. But you have instanced a madman, Socrates: why, do you suppose that anyone could bring himself, while he was in a sound state, to utter such a prayer? Soc. Do you regard madness as the opposite of wisdom? Alc. Certainly I do. Soc. And there are some men whom you regard as unwise, and others as wise? Alc. Why, yes. Soc. Come then, let us consider who these people are. We have admitted that some are unwise, some wise, and others mad. Alc. Yes, we have. Soc. And again, there are some in sound health? Alc. There are. Soc. And others also who are in ill-health?
French
Victor Cousin · wikisource-cousin-alcibiades_2-fr-01
[138a] SOCRATE. Alcibiade, vas-tu dans ce temple pour y prier ? ALCIBIADE. Oui Socrate, c’est mon dessein. SOCRATE. Aussi tu me parais bien rêveur, et je te vois les yeux attachés à terre, comme un homme qui réfléchit profondément. ALCIBIADE. Et a-t-on donc besoin de réflexions si profondes, Socrate ? SOCRATE. Les plus profondes, Alcibiade, ce me [138b] semble. Car, au nom de Jupiter, ne penses-tu pas que lorsque nous adressons nos prières aux dieux, soit en public, soit en particulier, les dieux nous accordent certaines choses et nous en refusent d’autres ? que tantôt ils exaucent, et tantôt ils rejettent nos vœux ? ALCIBIADE. Certainement. SOCRATE. Eh bien ! alors ne te semble-t-il pas que la prière exige beaucoup d’attention, de peur que, sans qu’on s’en aperçoive, on ne demande aux dieux de grands maux, en croyant leur demander de grands biens, et que les dieux ne se trouvent dans la disposition d’accorder ce qu’on leur demande ; comme Œdipe [138c] qui, dans un accès de colère, demanda aux dieux, à ce qu’on dit, que ses enfans décidassent leurs droits par l’épée. Et tandis qu’il pouvait prier les dieux d’éloigner de lui les maux dont il était accablé, il s’en attira de nouveaux ; car ses vœux furent exaucés, et de là cette longue suite de malheurs épouvantables, qu’il n’est pas nécessaire de te conter ici en détail. ALCIBIADE. Mais, Socrate, tu me parles-là d’un homme en délire : car peux-tu croire qu’un homme dans son bon sens eût pu faire de telles prières ? SOCRATE. Être en délire te paraît opposé à être dans son bon sens ? ALCIBIADE. Assurément. [138d] SOCRATE. Ne trouves-tu pas qu’il y a des hommes sensés et d’autres qui ne le sont pas ? ALCIBIADE. Et bien ? SOCRATE. Voyons, tâchons de les bien reconnaître. Il est convenu qu’il y a des hommes sensés et d’autres qui ne le sont pas, et d’autres encore qui sont en délire ? ALCIBIADE. Oui, cela est convenu. SOCRATE. N’y a-t-il pas des gens sains ? ALCIBIADE. Oui. SOCRATE. Et d’autres, malades ?
Concepts in this passage
Anger
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Care of the soul
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Dialectic
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Faith
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Family
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Fear
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Intelligible forms
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Freedom
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God
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Impressions and assent
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Justice
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Law
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Mindfulness
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Prayer
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Reason
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Time
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War and peace
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Wisdom
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Worship
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