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Plato
Second Alcibiades, a Pseudo-Platonic Dialogue Passage 141
Passage 4 of 14
Canonical reference 141
Ancient Greek
perseus-plato-alcibiades_2-grc
ΣΩ. τούτων μέντοι ἔλεγον, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, καὶ τὸν Οἰδίπουν εἶναι τῶν ἀνθρώπων· εὑρήσεις δʼ ἔτι καὶ τῶν νῦν πολλοὺς οὐκ ὀργῇ κεχρημένους, ὥσπερ ἐκεῖνον, οὐδʼ οἰομένους κακά σφισιν εὔχεσθαι, ἀλλʼ ἀγαθά. ἐκεῖνος μὲν ὥσπερ οὐδʼ ηὔχετο, οὐδʼ ᾤετο· ἕτεροι δέ τινές εἰσιν οἳ τἀναντία τούτων πεπόνθασιν. ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ οἶμαί σε πρῶτον, εἴ σοι ἐμφανὴς γενόμενος ὁ θεὸς πρὸς ὃν τυγχάνεις πορευόμενος, ἐρωτήσειεν, πρὶν ὁτιοῦν εὔξασθαί σε, εἰ ἐξαρκέσει σοι τύραννον γενέσθαι τῆς Ἀθηναίων πόλεως· εἰ δὲ τοῦτο φαῦλον ἡγήσαιο καὶ μὴ μέγα τι, προσθείη καὶ πάντων τῶν Ἑλλήνων· εἰ δέ σε ὁρῴη ἔτι ἔλαττον δοκοῦντα ἔχειν, εἰ μὴ καὶ πάσης Εὐρώπης, ὑποσταίη σοι καὶ τοῦτο, καὶ τοῦτο μὴ μόνον ὑποσταίη, ἀλλʼ αὐθημερόν σου βουλομένου ὡς πάντας αἰσθήσεσθαι ὅτι Ἀλκιβιάδης ὁ Κλεινίου τύραννός ἐστιν· αὐτὸν οἶμαι ἄν σε ἀπιέναι περιχαρῆ γενόμενον, ὡς τῶν μεγίστων ἀγαθῶν κεκυρηκότα. ΑΛ. ἐγὼ μὲν οἶμαι, ὦ Σώκρατες, κἂν ἄλλον ὁντινοῦν, εἴπερ τοιαῦτα συμβαίη αὐτῷ. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μέντοι ἀντί γε τῆς σῆς ψυχῆς οὐδʼ ἂν τὴν πάντων Ἑλλήνων τε καὶ βαρβάρων χώραν τε καὶ τυραννίδα βουληθείης σοι γενέσθαι. ΑΛ. οὐκ οἶμαι ἔγωγε. πῶς γὰρ ἄν, μηθέν γέ τι μέλλων αὐτοῖς χρήσεσθαι; ΣΩ. τί δʼ εἰ μέλλοις κακῶς τε καὶ βλαβερῶς χρῆσθαι; οὐδʼ ἂν οὕτως; ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. ὁρᾷς οὖν ὡς οὐκ ἀσφαλὲς οὔτε τὰ διδόμενα εἰκῇ δέχεσθαί τε οὔτε αὐτὸν εὔχεσθαι γενέσθαι, εἴ γέ τις βλάπτεσθαι μέλλοι διὰ ταῦτα ἢ τὸ παράπαν τοῦ βίου ἀπαλλαγῆναι. πολλοὺς δʼ ἂν ἔχοιμεν εἰπεῖν, ὅσοι τυραννίδος ἐπιθυμήσαντες ἤδη καὶ σπουδάσαντες τοῦτʼ αὐτοῖς παραγενέσθαι, ὡς ἀγαθόν τι πράξαντες, διὰ τὴν τυραννίδα ἐπιβουλευθέντες τὸν βίον ἀφῃρέθησαν. οἶμαι δέ σε οὐκ ἀνήκοον εἶναι ἔνιά γε χθιζά τε καὶ πρωιζὰ Hom. Il. 2.303 γεγενημένα, ὅτε Ἀρχέλαον τὸν Μακεδόνων τύραννον τὰ παιδικά, ἐρασθέντα τῆς τυραννίδος οὐθὲν ἧττον ἤπερ ἐκεῖνος τῶν παιδικῶν, ἀπέκτεινε τὸν ἐραστὴν ὡς τύραννός τε καὶ εὐδαίμων ἀνὴρ ἐσόμενος· κατασχὼν δὲ τρεῖς ἢ τέτταρας ἡμέρας τὴν τυραννίδα πάλιν αὐτὸς ἐπιβουλευθεὶς ὑφʼ ἑτέρων τινῶν ἐτελεύτησεν.
English
Benjamin Jowett · perseus-plato-alcibiades_2-en
Soc. Well, just such a person, as I was saying, Alcibiades, was Oedipus; and even in our time you will find many who do the same, not in a fit of anger, as he was: they think they pray not for something evil, but for something good. He neither prayed for that, nor thought he did, but there are others who are in the opposite case. For I imagine that if the god to whom you are now going should appear to you and first ask you, before you made any prayer, whether you would be content to become sovereign of the Athenian state and, on your accounting this as something poor and unimportant, should add and of all the Greeks also ; and if he saw you were still unsatisfied unless he promised you besides the mastery of all Europe , and should not merely promise you that, but on the self-same day a recognition by all men, if you so desired, of Alcibiades, son of Cleinias, as their sovereign - I imagine you would actually depart in a transport of delight, as having secured the greatest of goods. Alc. So would anybody else, I imagine, Socrates, at such a stroke of luck! Soc. But still you would not wish to sacrifice your life even for the territory and sovereignty of all the Greeks and barbarians together. Alc. I should think not. How could I, without a prospect of making any use of them? Soc. And what if you had a prospect of making an evil and injurious use of them? Not in this case either? Alc. No, indeed. Soc. So you see it is not safe either to accept casually what one is given, or to pray for one’s own advancement, if one is going to be injured in consequence, or deprived of one’s life altogether. Yet we could tell of many ere now who, having desired sovereignty, and endeavored to secure it, with the idea of working for their good, have lost their lives by plots which their sovereignty has provoked. And I expect you are not unacquainted with certain events of a day or two ago, Hom. Il. 2.303 when Archelaus, the monarch of Macedonia , was slain by his favorite, who was as much in love with the monarchy as Archelaus was with him, and who killed his lover with the expectation of being not only the monarch, but also a happy man: but after holding the monarchy for three or four days he was plotted against by others in his turn, and perished.
French
Victor Cousin · wikisource-cousin-alcibiades_2-fr-01
[141a] qu’Œdipe était de ce nombre ; mais encore aujourd’hui, tu en trouveras beaucoup qui, sans être comme lui transportés par la colère, demandent aux dieux de véritables maux, pensant lui demander de véritables biens. Car pour Œdipe, s’il ne demandait pas des biens, il ne croyait pas non plus en demander, au lieu que les autres font tous les jours le contraire ; et, sans aller plus loin, Alcibiade, si le dieu que tu vas prier paraissait tout d’un coup, et qu’avant que tu eusses ouvert la bouche, il te demandât si tu serais content d’être roi d’Athènes ; ou, si cela te paraissait trop peu de chose, de [141b] toute la Grèce ; ou, si tu n’étais pas encore satisfait, qu’il te promît l’Europe entière, et qu’il ajoutât, pour remplir ton ambition, que, le même jour, tout l’univers saurait qu’Alcibiade, fils de Clinias, est roi ; je suis persuadé que tu sortirais du temple au comble de la joie, comme venant de recevoir le plus grand de tous les biens. ALCIBIADE. Et je suis convaincu, Socrate, qu’il en serait ainsi de tout autre que moi, si la même fortune lui arrivait. [141c] SOCRATE. Mais tu ne voudrais pas donner ta vie pour le plaisir de commander aux Grecs et aux Barbares ? ALCIBIADE. Non, sans doute ; car a quoi bon ? Je ne pourraïs en jouir. SOCRATE. Mais si tu devais en jouir, et que cette jouissance dût t’être funeste, n’en voudrais-tu pas encore ? ALCIBIADE. Non, certes. SOCRATE. Tu vois donc bien qu’il n’est pas sûr d’accepter au hasard ce qui se présente, ni de faire soi-même des vœux, si l’on [141d] doit par là attirer sur sa tête des calamités, ou perdre même la vie : et on pourrait citer beaucoup d’ambitieux qui, ayant désiré avec passion la tyrannie, et n’ayant rien épargné pour y parvenir comme au plus grand de tous les biens, n’ont dû à cette élévation que de périr sous les embûches de leurs ennemis. Il n’est pas possible que tu n’aies entendu parler de ce qui vient d’arriver hier, ce matin même. Archélaüs, roi de Macédoine, avait un favori qu’il aimait avec une passion démesurée ; ce favori, encore plus amoureux du trône d’Archélaüs, qù’Archélaüs ne l’était de lui, vient de le tuer pour se mettre à sa place, se flattant qu’il ne serait pas plus tôt roi qu’il serait l’homme du monde [141e] le plus heureux ; mais à peine a-t-il joui trois ou quatre jours de la tyrannie, que le voilà égorgé, a son tour, par d’autres ambitieux. Et parmi nos Athéniens (et quant à ceci nous ne l’avons pas ouï dire, nous l’avons vu de nos propres yeux),
Concepts in this passage
Anger
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Care of the soul
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Desire
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Dialectic
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Education
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Ether and field
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Family
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Intelligible forms
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Fortune
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God
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Justice
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Law
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Love
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Mindfulness
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Philosophical eros
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Pleasure
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Poverty and wealth
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Prayer
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Suffering
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Time
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Worship
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