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Plato
Second Alcibiades, a Pseudo-Platonic Dialogue Passage 143
Passage 6 of 14
Canonical reference 143
Ancient Greek
perseus-plato-alcibiades_2-grc
ΣΩ. ἐμοὶ μὲν οὖν καλῶς δοκεῖ καὶ ἀσφαλῶς λέγειν ὁ ποιητής· σὺ δʼ εἴ τι ἐν νῷ ἔχεις πρὸς ταῦτα, μὴ σιώπα. ΑΛ. χαλεπόν, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐστὶν ἀντιλέγειν πρὸς τὰ καλῶς εἰρημένα· ἐκεῖνο δʼ οὖν ἐννοῶ, ὅσων κακῶν αἰτία ἡ ἄγνοια τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ὁπότε, ὡς ἔοικε, λελήθαμεν ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς διὰ ταύτην καὶ πράττοντες καὶ τό γε ἔσχατον εὐχόμενοι ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς τὰ κάκιστα. ὅπερ οὖν οὐδεὶς ἂν οἰηθείη, ἀλλὰ τοῦτό γε πᾶς ἂν οἴοιτο ἱκανὸς εἶναι, αὐτὸς αὑτῷ τὰ βέλτιστα εὔξασθαι, ἀλλʼ οὐ τὰ κάκιστα. τοῦτο μὲν γὰρ ὡς ἀληθῶς κατάρᾳ τινὶ ἀλλʼ οὐκ εὐχῇ ὅμοιον ἂν εἴη. ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ ἴσως, ὦ βέλτιστε, φαίη ἄν τις ἀνήρ, ὃς ἐμοῦ τε καὶ σοῦ σοφώτερος ὢν τυγχάνοι, οὐκ ὀρθῶς ἡμᾶς λέγειν, οὕτως εἰκῇ ψέγοντας ἄγνοιαν, εἴ γε μὴ προσθείημεν τὴν ἔστιν ὧν τε ἄγνοιαν καὶ ἔστιν οἷς καὶ ἔχουσί πως ἀγαθόν, ὥσπερ ἐκείνοις κακόν. ΑΛ. πῶς λέγεις; ἔστι γὰρ ὁτιοῦν πρᾶγμα ὅτῳ δὴ ὁπωσοῦν ἔχοντι ἄμεινον ἀγνοεῖν ἢ γιγνώσκειν; ΣΩ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ· σοὶ δʼ οὔ; ΑΛ. οὐ μέντοι μὰ Δία. ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν οὐδὲ ἐκεῖνό σου καταγνώσομαι, ἐθέλειν ἄν σε πρὸς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ μητέρα διαπεπρᾶχθαι ἅπερ Ὀρέστην φασὶ καὶ τὸν Ἀλκμέωνα καὶ εἰ δή τινες ἄλλοι ἐκείνοις τυγχάνουσι ταὐτὰ διαπεπραγμένοι. ΑΛ. εὐφήμει πρὸς Διός, ὦ Σώκρατες. ΣΩ. οὔτοι τὸν λέγοντα, ὦ Ἀλκιβιάδη, ὡς οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοις σοι ταῦτα πεπρᾶχθαι, εὐφημεῖν δεῖ σε κελεύειν, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον πολύ, εἴ τις τὰ ἐναντία λέγοι, ἐπειδὴ οὕτω σοι δοκεῖ σφόδρα δεινὸν εἶναι τὸ πρᾶγμα, ὥστʼ οὐδὲ ῥητέον εἶναι οὕτως εἰκῇ. δοκεῖς δʼ ἂν τὸν Ὀρέστην, εἰ ἐτύγχανε φρόνιμος ὢν καὶ εἰδὼς ὅτι βέλτιστον ἦν αὐτῷ πράττειν, τολμῆσαι ἄν τι τούτων διαπράξασθαι; ΑΛ. οὐ δῆτα. ΣΩ. οὐδέ γε ἄλλον οἶμαι οὐδένα. ΑΛ. οὐ μέντοι. ΣΩ. κακὸν ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐστὶν ἡ τοῦ βελτίστου ἄγνοια καὶ τὸ ἀγνοεῖν τὸ βέλτιστον. ΑΛ. ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ. ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐκείνῳ καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις ἅπασιν; ΑΛ. φημί.
English
Benjamin Jowett · perseus-plato-alcibiades_2-en
Soc. So then, to my mind the poet spoke well and soundly; but if you have thought of an answer to his words, do not be silent. Alc. It is difficult, Socrates, to gainsay what has been well spoken: one thing, however, I do observe - how many evils are caused to men by ignorance, when, as it seems, we are beguiled by her not only into doing, but - worst of all - into praying to be granted the greatest evils. Now that is a thing that no one would suppose of himself; each of us would rather suppose he was competent to pray for his own greatest good, not his greatest evil. Why, that would seem, in truth, more like some sort of curse than a prayer! Soc. But perhaps, my excellent friend, some person who is wiser than either you or I may say we are wrong to be so free with our abuse of ignorance, unless we can add that it is ignorance of certain things, and is a good to certain persons in certain conditions, as to those others it is an evil. Alc. How do you mean? Can there be anything of which it is better for anybody, in any condition whatsoever, to be ignorant than cognizant? Soc. I believe so; and do not you? Alc. No, indeed, upon my word. Soc. But surely I shall not have to tax you with an inclination to commit such an act against your own mother as Orestes and Alcmaeon, and any others who have followed their example, are said to have committed against theirs. Alc. No unlucky words, in Heaven’s name, Socrates! Soc. Why, it is not the person who says, Alcibiades, that you would not like to be guilty of such an act, whom you should bid avoid unlucky words, but much rather him who might say the contrary; since the act seems to you so very dreadful as to be unfit even for such casual mention. But do you think that Orestes, if he had had all his wits about him and had known what was best for him to do, would have brought himself to commit any act of the sort? Alc. No, indeed. Soc. Nor would anyone else, I imagine. Alc. No. Soc. Then it seems that ignorance of what is best, and to be ignorant of the best, is a bad thing. Alc. I agree. Soc. And not only for the person himself, but for everyone else? Alc. Yes.
French
Victor Cousin · wikisource-cousin-alcibiades_2-fr-01
[143a] « Puissant Jupiter, donne-nous les vrais biens, que nous les demandions, ou que nous ne les demandions pas ; et éloigne de nous les maux, quand même nous te les demanderions. » Cette prière me paraît très belle et très sûre. Si tu y trouves quelque chose à redire, parle. ALCIBIADE. Il est malaisé de contredire ce qui est bien dit. Mais je songe, Socrate, combien de maux l’ignorance cause aux hommes. C’est elle qui, à notre insu, [143b] nous fait faire tous les jours des choses qui nous sont funestes ; et, ce qu’il y a de plus déplorable, c’est elle qui nous porte à demander aux dieux nos propres malheurs. Personne ne s’en doute ; et tout le monde se croit fort en état de demander aux dieux du bonheur et non de la misère ; car ce ne serait pas là une prière, mais une véritable imprécation. SOCRATE. Mais peut-être, mon cher Alcibiade, un homme plus sage que toi et moi, nous dirait que nous avons grand tort [143c] de blâmer ainsi l’ignorance indistinctement, sans ajouter quelle sorte d’ignorance nous condamnons ; et que s’il y a des cas où elle est mauvaise, il y en a d’autres où elle est bonne. ALCIBIADE. Comment dis-tu, Socrate, y a-t-il rien qu’il soit plus utile d’ignorer que de savoir ? SOCRATE. Oui, selon moi. Tu n’es pas de cet avis ? ALCIBIADE. Non, certes, par Jupiter ! SOCRATE. Assurément je ne t’accuserai pas de vouloir te porter contre ta mère aux fureurs d’un Oreste, ou d’un Alcméon, ou d’aucun [143d] autre parricide. ALCIBIADE. Comment ! au nom des dieux, parle mieux, Socrate, je t’en prie. SOCRATE. Tu as tort, Alcibiade, de me recommander cela, à moi qui déclare que tu n’es pas capable de rien vouloir de semblable ; ce serait le cas, si l’on te disait le contraire, puisque ces actions te paraissent si abominables qu’on ne doit pas même les nommer légèrement. Mais, dis-moi, crois-tu qu’Oreste, s’il avait été dans son bon sens, et s’il eût su ce qu’il avait de mieux à faire, eût osé faire ce qu’il fit ? ALCIBIADE. Non, assurément. [143e] SOCRATE. Ni lui ni aucun autre ? ALCIBIADE. Ni aucun autre. SOCRATE. L’ignorance de ce qui est bien, est donc un mal, à ce qu’il paraît ? ALCIBIADE. Du moins selon moi. SOCRATE. Et pour Oreste, et pour tout autre ? ALCIBIADE. Oui. SOCRATE. Examinons encore un peu ceci. S’il t’était monté tout d’un coup dans la tête, croyant bien faire, d’aller tuer Périclès, ton tuteur et ton ami ; et si, prenant un poignard,
Concepts in this passage
Anger
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Care of the soul
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Dialectic
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Ether and field
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Faith
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Family
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Intelligible forms
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Freedom
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Friendship
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God
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Moral rightness and utility
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Human wisdom
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Knowledge
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Law
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Prayer
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Service
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Sin
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Truth
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Wisdom
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