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Plato

Euthydemus Passage 281

Passage 11 of 37

Canonical reference 281

Ancient Greek

perseus-plato-euthydemus-grc

ΣΩ. καλῶς γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, λέγεις. πλέον γάρ που οἶμαι θάτερόν ἐστιν, ἐάν τις χρῆται ὁτῳοῦν μὴ ὀρθῶς πράγματι ἢ ἐὰν ἐᾷ· τὸ μὲν γὰρ κακόν, τὸ δὲ οὔτε κακὸν οὔτε ἀγαθόν. ἢ οὐχ οὕτω φαμέν; - συνεχώρει. - τί οὖν; ἐν τῇ ἐργασίᾳ τε καὶ χρήσει τῇ περὶ τὰ ξύλα μῶν ἄλλο τί ἐστιν τὸ ἀπεργαζόμενον ὀρθῶς χρῆσθαι ἢ ἐπιστήμη ἡ τεκτονική; - οὐ δῆτα, ἔφη. - ἀλλὰ μήν που καὶ ἐν τῇ περὶ τὰ σκεύη ἐργασίᾳ τὸ ὀρθῶς ἐπιστήμη ἐστὶν ἡ ἀπεργαζομένη. - συνέφη. - ἆρʼ οὖν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ περὶ τὴν χρείαν ὧν ἐλέγομεν τὸ πρῶτον τῶν ἀγαθῶν, πλούτου τε καὶ ὑγιείας καὶ κάλλους, τὸ ὀρθῶς πᾶσι τοῖς τοιούτοις χρῆσθαι ἐπιστήμη ἦν ἡγουμένη καὶ κατορθοῦσα τὴν πρᾶξιν, ἢ ἄλλο τι; - ἐπιστήμη, ἦ δʼ ὅς. - οὐ μόνον ἄρα εὐτυχίαν ἀλλὰ καὶ εὐπραγίαν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἡ ἐπιστήμη παρέχει τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐν πάσῃ κτήσει τε καὶ πράξει. - ὡμολόγει. - ἆρʼ οὖν ὦ πρὸς Διός, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὄφελός τι τῶν ἄλλων κτημάτων ἄνευ φρονήσεως καὶ σοφίας; ἆρά γε ἂν ὄναιτο ἄνθρωπος πολλὰ κεκτημένος καὶ πολλὰ πράττων νοῦν μὴ ἔχων, ἢ μᾶλλον ὀλίγα νοῦν ἔχων; ὧδε δὲ σκόπει· οὐκ ἐλάττω πράττων ἐλάττω ἂν ἐξαμαρτάνοι, ἐλάττω δὲ ἁμαρτάνων ἧττον ἂν κακῶς πράττοι, ἧττον δὲ κακῶς πράττων ἄθλιος ἧττον ἂν εἴη; - πάνυ γʼ, ἔφη. - πότερον οὖν ἂν μᾶλλον ἐλάττω τις πράττοι πένης ὢν ἢ πλούσιος; - πένης, ἔφη. - πότερον δὲ ἀσθενὴς ἢ ἰσχυρός; - ἀσθενής. - πότερον δὲ ἔντιμος ἢ ἄτιμος; - ἄτιμος. - πότερον δὲ ἀνδρεῖος ὢν καὶ σώφρων ἐλάττω ἂν πράττοι ἢ δειλός; - δειλός. - οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀργὸς μᾶλλον ἢ ἐργάτης; - συνεχώρει. - καὶ βραδὺς μᾶλλον ἢ ταχύς, καὶ ἀμβλὺ ὁρῶν καὶ ἀκούων μᾶλλον ἢ ὀξύ; - πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα συνεχωροῦμεν ἀλλήλοις. - ἐν κεφαλαίῳ δʼ, ἔφην, ὦ Κλεινία, κινδυνεύει σύμπαντα ἃ τὸ πρῶτον ἔφαμεν ἀγαθὰ εἶναι, οὐ περὶ τούτου ὁ λόγος αὐτοῖς εἶναι, ὅπως αὐτά γε καθʼ αὑτὰ πέφυκεν ἀγαθὰ εἶναι , ἀλλʼ ὡς ἔοικεν ὧδʼ ἔχει· ἐὰν μὲν αὐτῶν ἡγῆται ἀμαθία, μείζω κακὰ εἶναι τῶν ἐναντίων, ὅσῳ δυνατώτερα ὑπηρετεῖν τῷ ἡγουμένῳ κακῷ ὄντι, ἐὰν δὲ φρόνησίς τε καὶ σοφία, μείζω ἀγαθά, αὐτὰ δὲ καθʼ αὑτὰ οὐδέτερα αὐτῶν οὐδενὸς ἄξια εἶναι. - φαίνεται, ἔφη, ὡς ἔοικεν, οὕτως, ὡς σὺ λέγεις. - τί οὖν ἡμῖν συμβαίνει ἐκ τῶν εἰρημένων; ἄλλο τι ἢ τῶν μὲν ἄλλων οὐδὲν ὂν οὔτε ἀγαθὸν οὔτε κακόν, τούτοιν δὲ δυοῖν ὄντοιν ἡ μὲν σοφία ἀγαθόν, ἡ δὲ ἀμαθία κακόν; - ὡμολόγει.

English

Benjamin Jowett · perseus-plato-euthydemus-en

Soc. Well answered, I said; for I suppose there is more mischief when a man uses anything wrongly than when he lets it alone. In the one case there is evil; in the other there is neither evil nor good. May we not state it so? He agreed. To proceed then: in the working and use connected with wood, is there anything else that effects the right use than the knowledge of carpentry? Surely not, he said. Further, I presume that in the working connected with furniture it is knowledge that effects the right work. Yes, he said. Then similarly, I went on, in the use of the goods we mentioned at first - wealth and health and beauty - was it knowledge that showed the way to the right use of all those advantages and rectified their conduct, or was it something else? Knowledge, he replied. So that knowledge, it would seem, supplies mankind not only with good luck, but with welfare, in all that he either possesses or conducts. He agreed. Then can we, in Heaven’s name, get any benefit from all the other possessions without understanding and wisdom? Shall we say that a man will profit more by possessing much and doing much when he has no sense, than he will if he does and possesses little? Consider it this way: would he not err less if he did less; and so, erring less, do less ill; and hence, doing less ill, be less miserable? Certainly, he said. In which of the two cases, when one is poor or when one is rich, will one be more likely to do less? When one is poor, he said. And when one is weak, or when one is strong? Weak. And when one has high position, or has none? None. When one is brave and self-controlled, will one do less, or when one is a coward? A coward. So too, when idle rather than busy? He agreed. And slow rather than quick, and dim of sight and hearing rather than sharp? We agreed with each other as to these and all such cases. To sum up then, Cleinias, I proceeded, it seems that, as regards the whole lot of things which at first we termed goods, the discussion they demand is not on the question of how they are in themselves and by nature goods, but rather, I conceive, as follows: if they are guided by ignorance, they are greater evils than their opposites, according as they are more capable of ministering to their evil guide; whereas if understanding and wisdom guide them, they are greater goods; but in themselves neither sort is of any worth. I think the case appears, he replied, to be as you suggest. Now what result do we get from our statements? Is it not precisely that, of all the other things, not one is either good or bad, but of these two, wisdom is good and ignorance bad? He agreed.

French

Victor Cousin · wikisource-cousin-euthydemus-fr-01

[281a] bien ni mal. N’en est-il pas ainsi ? - Certainement, dit Clinias. - Y a-t-il autre chose qui apprenne à bien employer le bois que la science du charpentier ? - Non, certainement. - Et dans la fabrication des ustensiles, repris-je, c’est encore la science qui enseigne la vraie manière de s’y prendre ? - Oui. - Dans l’usage des biens, dont nous avons parlé d’abord, des richesses, de la santé et de la beauté, c’est donc aussi la science [281b] qui apprend à bien s’en servir, ou est-ce quelque autre chose ? - La science. - Ce n’est donc pas seulement le succès, mais le bon usage, que la science enseigne aux hommes dans tout ce qu’ils possèdent et ce qu’ils font. - Il en convint. - Par Jupiter ! peut-on posséder utilement une chose sans lumières et sans sagesse ? à quoi sert-il, quand on n’a pas de tête, de posséder et de faire beaucoup de choses ; ou d’avoir du bon sens, quand on n’a rien et qu’on ne peut rien faire ? fais-y bien attention. En agissant moins, [281c] ne ferait-on pas moins de fautes ? en faisant moins de fautes, ne s’en trouverait-on pas moins mal ? et en se trouvant moins mal, n’en serait-on pas moins malheureux ? - Oui, répondit Clinias. - Mais qui agit le moins, le riche ou le pauvre ? - Le pauvre. - Le fort ou le faible ? - Le faible. - Celui qui a des honneurs ou celui qui n’en a pas ? - Celui qui n’en a pas. - Qui agit moins, l’homme brave et éclairé ou le timide ? - Le timide. - Et l’oisif, n’agit-il pas moins que l’actif ? - Oui. - Et l’homme lourd moins que [281d] l’agile, et celui qui a la vue basse et l’ouïe dure moins que celui qui les a bonnes ? - Après que nous fûmes convenus de tout cela, j’ajoutai : En général, Clinias, il paraît que tous les biens que nous avons nommés tels dans le commencement, ne peuvent pas être considérés comme des biens en eux-mêmes ; qu’au contraire, s’ils sont au pouvoir de l’ignorance, ils sont pires que les maux contraires, parce qu’ils fournissent plus de moyens d’agir au sot qui les possède ; mais ils ne sont préférables que s’ils sont accompagnés de lumières et de sagesse ; en eux-mêmes [281e] ils ne doivent passer ni pour bons ni pour mauvais. - Il me semble que tu as raison, dit Clinias. - Que conclurons-nous donc de tout ceci ? Qu’en général rien n’est bon ni mauvais, excepté deux choses, la sagesse qui est un bien, et l’ignorance un mal. - Clinias l’avoua. -

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