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Plato
Symposium Passage 181
Passage 10 of 52
Canonical reference 181
Ancient Greek
perseus-plato-symposium-grc
οἷον ὃ νῦν ἡμεῖς ποιοῦμεν, ἢ πίνειν ἢ ᾁδειν ἢ διαλέγεσθαι, οὐκ ἔστι τούτων αὐτὸ καλὸν οὐδέν, ἀλλʼ ἐν τῇ πράξει, ὡς ἂν πραχθῇ, τοιοῦτον ἀπέβη· καλῶς μὲν γὰρ πραττόμενον καὶ ὀρθῶς καλὸν γίγνεται, μὴ ὀρθῶς δὲ αἰσχρόν. οὕτω δὴ καὶ τὸ ἐρᾶν καὶ ὁ Ἔρως οὐ πᾶς ἐστι καλὸς οὐδὲ ἄξιος ἐγκωμιάζεσθαι, ἀλλὰ ὁ καλῶς προτρέπων ἐρᾶν. ὁ μὲν οὖν τῆς Πανδήμου Ἀφροδίτης ὡς ἀληθῶς πάνδημός ἐστι καὶ ἐξεργάζεται ὅτι ἂν τύχῃ· καὶ οὗτός ἐστιν ὃν οἱ φαῦλοι τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐρῶσιν. ἐρῶσι δὲ οἱ τοιοῦτοι πρῶτον μὲν οὐχ ἧττον γυναικῶν ἢ παίδων, ἔπειτα ὧν καὶ ἐρῶσι τῶν σωμάτων μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν ψυχῶν, ἔπειτα ὡς ἂν δύνωνται ἀνοητοτάτων, πρὸς τὸ διαπράξασθαι μόνον βλέποντες, ἀμελοῦντες δὲ τοῦ καλῶς ἢ μή· ὅθεν δὴ συμβαίνει αὐτοῖς ὅτι ἂν τύχωσι τοῦτο πράττειν, ὁμοίως μὲν ἀγαθόν, ὁμοίως δὲ τοὐναντίον. ἔστι γὰρ καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς θεοῦ νεωτέρας τε οὔσης πολὺ ἢ τῆς ἑτέρας, καὶ μετεχούσης ἐν τῇ γενέσει καὶ θήλεος καὶ ἄρρενος. ὁ δὲ τῆς Οὐρανίας πρῶτον μὲν οὐ μετεχούσης θήλεος ἀλλʼ ἄρρενος μόνον - καὶ ἔστιν οὗτος ὁ τῶν παίδων ἔρως - ἔπειτα πρεσβυτέρας, ὕβρεως ἀμοίρου· ὅθεν δὴ ἐπὶ τὸ ἄρρεν τρέπονται οἱ ἐκ τούτου τοῦ ἔρωτος ἔπιπνοι, τὸ φύσει ἐρρωμενέστερον καὶ νοῦν μᾶλλον ἔχον ἀγαπῶντες. καί τις ἂν γνοίη καὶ ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ παιδεραστίᾳ τοὺς εἰλικρινῶς ὑπὸ τούτου τοῦ ἔρωτος ὡρμημένους· οὐ γὰρ ἐρῶσι παίδων, ἀλλʼ ἐπειδὰν ἤδη ἄρχωνται νοῦν ἴσχειν, τοῦτο δὲ πλησιάζει τῷ γενειάσκειν. παρεσκευασμένοι γὰρ οἶμαί εἰσιν οἱ ἐντεῦθεν ἀρχόμενοι ἐρᾶν ὡς τὸν βίον ἅπαντα συνεσόμενοι καὶ κοινῇ συμβιωσόμενοι, ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐξαπατήσαντες, ἐν ἀφροσύνῃ λαβόντες ὡς νέον, καταγελάσαντες οἰχήσεσθαι ἐπʼ ἄλλον ἀποτρέχοντες. χρῆν δὲ καὶ νόμον εἶναι μὴ ἐρᾶν παίδων, ἵνα μὴ εἰς ἄδηλον πολλὴ σπουδὴ ἀνηλίσκετο· τὸ γὰρ τῶν παίδων τέλος ἄδηλον οἷ τελευτᾷ κακίας καὶ ἀρετῆς ψυχῆς τε πέρι καὶ σώματος. οἱ μὲν οὖν ἀγαθοὶ τὸν νόμον τοῦτον αὐτοὶ αὑτοῖς ἑκόντες τίθενται, χρῆν δὲ καὶ τούτους τοὺς πανδήμους ἐραστὰς προσαναγκάζειν τὸ τοιοῦτον, ὥσπερ καὶ τῶν ἐλευθέρων γυναικῶν προσαναγκάζομεν αὐτοὺς καθʼ ὅσον δυνάμεθα μὴ ἐρᾶν.
English
Benjamin Jowett · perseus-plato-symposium-en
For instance, in our conduct at this moment, whether we drink or sing or converse, none of these things is noble in itself; each only turns out to be such in the doing, as the manner of doing it may be. For when the doing of it is noble and right, the thing itself becomes noble; when wrong, it becomes base. So also it is with loving, and Love is not in every case noble or worthy of celebration, but only when he impels us to love in a noble manner. Now the Love that belongs to the Popular Aphrodite is in very truth popular and does his work at haphazard: this is the Love we see in the meaner sort of men; who, in the first place, love women as well as boys; secondly, where they love, they are set on the body more than the soul; and thirdly, they choose the most witless people they can find, since they look merely to the accomplishment and care not if the manner be noble or no. Hence they find themselves doing everything at haphazard, good or its opposite, without distinction: for this Love proceeds from the goddess who is far the younger of the two, and who in her origin partakes of both female and male. But the other Love springs from the Heavenly goddess who, firstly, partakes not of the female but only of the male; and secondly, is the elder, untinged with wantonness: wherefore those who are inspired by this Love betake them to the male, in fondness for what has the robuster nature and a larger share of mind. Even in the passion for boys you may note the way of those who are under the single incitement of this Love: they love boys only when they begin to acquire some mind - a growth associated with that of down on their chins. For I conceive that those who begin to love them at this age are prepared to be always with them and share all with them as long as life shall last: they will not take advantage of a boy’s green thoughtlessness to deceive him and make a mock of him by running straight off to another. Against this love of boys a law should have been enacted, to prevent the sad waste of attentions paid to an object so uncertain: for who can tell where a boy will end at last, vicious or virtuous in body and soul? Good men, however, voluntarily make this law for themselves, and it is a rule which those popular lovers ought to be forced to obey, just as we force them, so far as we can, to refrain from loving our freeborn women.
French
Victor Cousin · wikisource-cousin-symposium-fr-01
[181a] ce que nous faisons présentement, boire, manger, discourir, rien de tout cela n’est bon en soi, mais peut le devenir par la manière dont on le fait ; bon si on le fait selon les règles de l’honnêteté, mauvais si on le fait contre ces règles. Il en est de même d’aimer : tout amour, en général, n’est ni bon ni louable, mais seulement celui qui nous fait aimer honnêtement. L’Amour de la Vénus populaire est populaire aussi [181b] et n’inspire que des actions basses : c’est l’amour qui règne parmi les gens du commun. Ils aiment sans choix, pas moins les femmes que les hommes, plutôt le corps que l’âme ; plus on est déraisonnable et plus ils vous recherchent, car ils n’aspirent qu’à la jouissance : pourvu qu’ils y parviennent, il ne leur importe par quels moyens ; de là vient qu’ils s’attachent à tout ce qui se présente, bon ou mauvais : car leur amour est celui d’une déesse plus jeune [181c] que l’autre, et née du mâle et de la femelle. Mais la Vénus Uranie n’ayant point eu de mère, l’Amour qui marche à sa suite n’a qu’un sexe pour objet. Attaché à une déesse plus âgée, et qui n’a point la fougue de la jeunesse, ceux qu’il inspire n’aiment que le sexe le plus généreux et qui participe davantage de l’intelligence. C’est à l’amour des jeunes gens que se reconnaissent les serviteurs du véritable amour. Et ils ne s’attachent point à une trop grande jeunesse, mais à l’âge où l’intelligence commence à se développer, c’est-à-dire quand la barbe est venue : car ils ne veulent pas mettre à profit l’imprudence d’un trop jeune ami, pour le laisser aussitôt après [181d] et courir à quelque autre objet, mais ils se lient dans le dessein de ne se plus séparer, et de passer toute leur vie avec ce qu’ils aiment. Il serait vraiment à souhaiter qu’il y eût une loi, par laquelle il fut défendu d’aimer de trop jeunes gens, afin qu’on ne donnât point son temps à une chose si incertaine : en effet, qui sait ce que deviendra un jour cette jeunesse, quel pli prendront et le corps et l’esprit, de quel côté ils tourneront, vers le vice ou vers la vertu ? Les gens sages s’imposent eux-mêmes [181e] une loi si juste. Mais il faudrait la faire observer rigoureusement par les amans populaires dont nous parlions, et leur défendre ces sortes d’engagements comme on les empêche, autant
Concepts in this passage
Anger
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Care of the soul
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Education
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Ether and field
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Family
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Intelligible forms
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Fortune
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Freedom
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God
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Moral rightness and utility
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Justice
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Law
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Love
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Messiah
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Mindfulness
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Nature
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Philosophical eros
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Reason
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Service
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Sin
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Spirit
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Suffering
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Time
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Truth
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Virtue
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Wisdom
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